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Tesla 2013 Supercharger Progress - US/Canada

Tesla 2013 Supercharger Progress - US/Canada

23 currently. Tesla planning 100 by the end of the year. http://www.cnbc.com/id/101044273/ 77 to go!!

Edit October 2: 24 currently, 76 to go!
Edit October 7: 25 currently, 75 to go!
Edit October 17: 26 currently, 74 to go!
Edit October 22: 28 currently, 72 to go!
Edit October 23: 30 currently, 70 to go!
Edit October 25: 31 currently, 69 to go!
Edit November 10: 32 currently, 68 to go!
Edit November 16: 34 currently, 66 to go!

Alex K | September 26, 2013

That CNBC map does not match the winter 2013 Tesla supercharger map.

Raystown13 | September 26, 2013

That is drastically less SC than promised in the chart on the website? it states by winter 2013> all metropolitan cities> clearly more then 100. I have read from others, that it woule be nice for Tesla to come out with a statement with athe reasons they are slow to build out the NE, and other areas. I have a feeling it has alot to do with the rollout in Europe...

jd3tm | September 26, 2013

There really is a difference between "GOAL" and "promised"!

you might want to check out the other thread on SC roll-out!

I know we are all wishing they would be out there faster, for sure!

I'm actually amazed that there are as many SC's in full operation as we have today.

Remember, the FIRST SIGNATURE MODEL Ss were delivered just one year ago!!! I'm VIN 465/Sig 692 and mine was delivered 11/2/2013!!! Hasn't even been a year yet!

cheers

omarsultan.ca.us | September 26, 2013

My guess is the "slowness" in the NE has more to with local intransigence rather then the EU buildout.

O

tes-s | September 26, 2013

The terminology they seem to use is not "goal" or "promise", but "plan".

I'm hoping they don't come up short on their "fall" plan, like they did on their summer plan. Hopefully they have made the necessary adjustments so they will be successful this time.

sunnyms85 | September 26, 2013

Im pretty sure that there trying to save money by decreasing the spending output in order to continue rising on the stock market. They will start them faster after the quarter closes........ just my opinion not facts.

PatT | September 28, 2013

From a financial prospective I don't think that there is a lot of difference between the asset "cash" and the asset "SC". In fact, having a lot of cash actually may indicate that they are not able to deploy it efficiently. IMO TM is doing just fine at building out their SC system.

erici | September 28, 2013

Curious how much their electric bill is from the superchargers. Do they ever break that out in their quarterly numbers?

And no, the energy doesn't come from solar at the three superchargers that I visited (Gilroy, Atascadero, Buellton).

ian t.wa.us | September 29, 2013

The delayed build out is entirely local red tape/permitting issues. Nothing more. Definitely has nothing to do with EU SC build out.

@sunnyms85 - Save money by decreasing spending output to rise stock price? That's just laughable. The more SC's (both Superchargers and Service Centers) they build the more cars they'll sell, the higher the stock price will go.

@erici - Don't forget all the excess solar power produced by all the residential roof top systems installed by Solar City.

tes-s | September 29, 2013

@erici - their cost of electricity for the SCs is about $150,000 so far. Hard to translate that to quarters, but my guess would be half of that came in the third quarter based on number of cars and SCs.

Not sure how the accounting around SC electricity works. They have some arrangement with Solar City, and I'm not sure who carries the liability for future electricity in their financials.

J.T. | September 29, 2013

@goneskiian The delayed build out is entirely local red tape/permitting issues. Nothing more.

In the past when Tesla has had difficulty from governmental entities they have made this public. If there is a community that is balking at issuing permits the Tesla community could help put pressure on the local authorities.

Also, you can't have a permit issue until you apply for one and once you apply it's a matter of public record and we'd know about it.

So, what are you basing your very strong assertion on?

erici | September 29, 2013

Construction permits should be good for a couple of years at least once you have them in hand.

Are they now in the permitting process for their 2014 and 2015 supercharger projects? That would be the solution to future permitting delays -- apply early.

It would be a shame if this time next year we hear the same things about permitting delays.

Volleyguy | September 29, 2013

As good as the SC's are compared to what else is out there they can not be the end goal. A 1 hour full charge?

This is good for the committed but the cast majority will find even this too slow, maybe does Tesla have something even faster in the works? Just guessing, maybe hoping?

erici | September 29, 2013

@goneskiian "Don't forget all the excess solar power produced by all the residential roof top systems installed by Solar City."

I don't really understand what you meant by that comment.

Any excess residential rooftop solar electricity winds up being absorbed by somebody's air conditioner down the street. Perhaps the house next door.

That's where the electricity goes in a world without Tesla superchargers.

Then a few superchargers are added to the region, putting pressure on the grid. I presume that means natural gas burning generators pick up that excess here in California. Or in Utah, it would be coal burning.

We're not at the point yet where excess rooftop residential solar leads to 100% idle capacity at the electric generating plants.

tes-s | September 29, 2013

@Volleyguy - Tesla does plan faster supercharging, and actually already has it on their website - 200 miles in a half hour.

That is very reasonable for me. Most of the "time" my car is driven and charged locally. Most of the "miles" would involve trips using one supercharger "fill up", and I have no problem stopping for a half hour to stretch the legs, pee, and get a bite to eat while getting 150 to 200 miles of range added.

You are correct, it is not for eveyone. Neither is a $90,000 car. I can certainly see a scenario where there is a combination of CNG fleets, electric, hybrid, and ICE vehicles for the next 50 years, as we have now. The ratio will simply change as the economics and logistics (like charge time, supercharger locations) change.

Volleyguy | September 29, 2013

Is it just me or do you see SC's as really not good enough for mass market in the U.S.?

In Norway at $10 a gallon most people will not mind the wait. In the U.S. at less than $4? I am not sure?

Is even faster needed? (for the U.S. market)

In reality 10 years down the road people talk about when it used to take 20 minutes for a half charge and how slow it was. So SC's are today's high tech and tomorrow's obsolete tech. So how many do you build?

tes-s | September 29, 2013

1. I do not see the current technology (battery, charging) as good enough for the mass market. But simply on the MS and MX I think it is viable.

2. Gasoline will cost $10/gal in the US - most agree on that. The question is when ranging from now (when you add in the cost of the wars in the middle east) to some time in the future.

3. Is faster needed? Sure!! And it will come. The current SCs are capable of 120kw, which would be a full charge in less than an hour. I think someone posted they could add another 30kW rectifier to the exsiting cabinets.

4. Of course!! The current SCs will be obsolete in 10 years. Guess what - so will your home computer. But the power feed to the SC cabinet will still be fine, and the rest can simply be ripped out and replaced if not upgradeable.

Do you know anyone that still has their Apple IIe and 300bps modem waiting for a new computer that won't become obsolete?

erici | September 29, 2013

Volleyguy,
That's a question I've wondered about too. How much does it spend to upgrade an existing supercharger installation from 90 kWh to 120 kWh.

On the website their charge times are for 120 kWh, but in reality when you drive out to one of their newest installations (Buellton) it is only 90 kWh.

erici | September 29, 2013

Just strip out the "h" everywhere I wrote "kWh". Creature of habit.

Volleyguy | September 29, 2013

Tes-s
I agree people do not own their old computer but if someone is putting in fuel tanks for gas stations they are not thinking of ripping them out in a couple of years for faster pumps and tanks or they likely would not do it! So clearly a SC station is not a gas station as it will be obsolete and and investment except land written off.

So it is tough put out 200 SC's in North America and write them off in a short time. Any idea what the cost of that will be?

From Tesla's point of view I bet they are ok with the owners having a much better option in a new car but the SC's are their write off...

Volleyguy | September 29, 2013

Erici

So the Tesla is not even doing their most advanced at the newest stations?

In my hometown the city just opened a charging station at 90 amps with a Tesla roadster being here. I live very close to the Toyota factory that builds the Rav4 EV with the Tesla parts. A few roadsters float around here for test purposes.

How much faster is Tesla's 90 amp compared to Sun Country's charging station? They even advertise with a Model S and they opened the station here with a Roadster.

https://suncountryhighway.ca/

erici | September 29, 2013

I can't comment on their "newest" stations, but the Atascadero and Buellton chargers were constructed sometime in June or July and are at 90 kW, not 120 kW. Perhaps they were on the threshold of the new technology at that time?

tes-s | September 29, 2013

I thought all the new chargers were 120kW, and they could upgrade the older ones. I think all the ones in the Northeast are 120kW.

200 SCs is $30M including installation.

And just because something better comes along, does not mean they no longer work or have value. You mentioned a 90amp charger - clearly obsolete, right?

I can see "high traffic" areas, like highway rest stops, getting replacements. The "old" SCs could be redeployed to locations where a "slow" charge makes sense - supermarket, retail outlets, cell phone waiting lot at the airport, and other places where people may be parked for 30 minutes to an hour.

Another scenario would be to simply add faster chargers, even in the same locations. As they sell more cars, they will need more charging capacity and will have to expand existing locations. Why not leave the old chargers, and add new faster ones?

This is not a new problem. http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Old_Gas_Pump.jpg

Kleist | September 29, 2013

All new SC are 120 kW, but currently operate at 90 kW. The cars need a software upgrade ( prob. V 5.0 )... and as we know the V 5.0 roll out is delayed because of bugs.

Sun Country 90 A chargers : 240 V * 90 A = 21.6 kW or 208 V * 90 A = 18.7 kW.

Volleyguy | September 29, 2013

Kliest could you help me on this?

Would you rather have the as I understand twin charger on a Tesla charging everywhere basically or spend money on the SC option for some chargers that we just do not have?

What is more practical?

redacted | September 29, 2013

I was at the Rockford, IL SC last night. I calculated the charge rate (initial) at 110KW.

If I had the choice of doing my trips on 2x$80 tanks of gas vs. 4x30 minute SC charges, I'd go with the free every time.

tes-s | September 29, 2013

The 120kW SCs put out 86kW continuously. Not sure how long they can sustain 120kW - maybe long enough to provide a full charge, or perhaps it is dependent on temperature or input line voltage?

Each 120kW is shared between two stalls.

The highest kW I have seen my car report charging is 244amps at 387v which would be 94kW.

tes-s | September 29, 2013

@Volleyguy - I got 'em all. Twin chargers and supercharging. As well as 85kWh battery.

There is a 70amp charger I plan to use, as well as superchargers, which drove my decision. And since I have twin chargers, I also put in HPWC at my house simply for convenience.

Kleist | September 29, 2013

Volleyguy - I have both. Reason : most future proof.

Twin chargers:
- if you think venturing out, then twin chargers are useful if you find a 80A charger. I plan to drive the sun country highway so that was a must for me.
- if your house supports extra 100A and you need a quicker charge at home ( my main panel is 100A, so not an option for me )
Super Chargers :
- I live half way between Gilroy and Fremont - both are too close to be of any practical use except SC testing. I need SC on 101 north of SF and on 99 - none of these are on the 2015 map.

I have a long term view on the SC and 90A J1772 - in 5 to 10 years the situation will be much different. In the mean time we installed a 14-50 at my wife's parents house and that extends my range another 100 miles North... not the most convenient, but they are happy to see us anyway and we take a break.

Volleyguy | September 29, 2013

Now Tes-s if you were buying just a 60 if you could would you rather twin charging as 40 amp is really slow or SC enabled which is fast but there are no or just a few stations. Which way would you go then?

I know a 85 does help a lot with longer range plus SC is included if we ever see enough of them to matter.

I am trying to justify this purchase with some sensibility I have never bought a $100k car before in fact even the $50-70k cars have been used.

hsadler | September 29, 2013

Not sure how installing SC's in Europe stops the ones planned here in the US. Is there a feeling that Tesla is diverting construction crews to Europe?

Silly wabbit.

Also, if there is no evidence of Solar at a particular location, it does not necessarily mean they aren't being subsidized by Solar.
Panels (or farms) can be located anywhere and the resulting collection credited to an SC input.

Kleist | September 29, 2013

just in case some don't know about this super charger thread...

http://www.teslamotors.com/forum/forums/updated-how-it-works-supercharge...

Volleyguy | September 29, 2013

Kleist
If a 60 did 90% of your driving and when you did need the extra there are tons of 90 amp chargers around here. You can add 60 miles of range in an hour. Which gets us to 95% of use quite easy then a couple times a year you go on vacation and have to plan a bit not a big deal to me.

Is there and chance of public level III chargers. Is it really sensible to look out in the future and think Tesla will maintain it's own network? I can not see it... For anyone really. Proprietary charging just can not see it...

tes-s | September 29, 2013

If I were buying a 60 I would not get twin chargers or SC capability. It would be an awesome car for commuting, daily driving and some short trips for me, but would never suffice for my longer trips even with both SC capability and twin chargers.

ian t.wa.us | September 29, 2013

@jtod - You seemed to gloss over the "local red tape" part of my comment. Have you been reading the threads about Supercharger roll out over at TMC.com? If you haven't, you should. Way more informative than the ones here.

Some examples...

The first SC in Oregon was done in the "Summer" time frame when it wasn't scheduled until "Fall". Why? Because the owner of the property and the county in which it was installed where both "EV friendly". The property owner even posts both here and at TMC.com and has attended Tesla events in Oregon.

Second, notice how quickly all the Norwegian SC's went up? Why? Very EV friendly country.

Third, in Texas the first site planned (in Temple I believe) was denied because of a local politician being in the back pocket of the auto dealership lobby.

@erici - hsadler kind of made my point. Solar City is making money off of the residential installations which subsidizes the cost of the electricity being used elsewhere by the Superchargers.

Cheers!

Volleyguy | September 29, 2013

Tes-s
The problem then is that is a lot of money for a commuter car. Leading back to the 85 which includes SC but the problem is we do not have any... Chicken or the egg thing again. This leads to reading every thread on SC's... (hoping and waiting)

Kleist | September 29, 2013

Volleyguy - the SC network isn't going away unless Tesla goes bankrupt. The SC network is a future revenue generator, free car charging is just a byproduct.
Proprietary charging is a plug - how fast can you put a different plug on a cable. The expensive and hard stuff is the utility connection, some SC permits already require TMC to install J1772 as well.

Benz | September 29, 2013

@Kleist

"The SC network is a future revenue generator, free car charging is just a byproduct."

Would you please explain/clarify what you mean by that? Thanks

Kleist | September 29, 2013

@Benz - what is a Super Charger ? Solar panels, a battery and a fat connection to the grid... oh yes, there are also a couple of outlets to charge cars. The holy grail of green energy is cheap electricity storage. Solar production and peak usage are offset by a couple of hours, CA utilities complain big time about the shift... Germany just moved from solar incentives to electrical storage incentives. To shift my solar production to my peak usage for my house all I need is an 8 kWh battery. Solar costs $18k, battery costs $11k and weighs half a ton ( Lead-Acid - frequently to be replaced ). Give me a 150 lbs battery for $3k that last 20-30 years and I install it tomorrow.
Do you think Elon would burden Tesla with the liability of charging millions of EV? Read the secret master plan and in between the lines it is already there. Super chargers will generate revenue - not 2013, 2014 but for sure by 2016/17.

tes-s | September 29, 2013

@goneskian - red tape and politics holding up SCs is a myth that some people are beginning to believe because it has been repeated so often.

EV chargers are being permitted and installed all the time.

There are thousands of alternative sites that would accomplish the SC goal of long distance travel; troublesome jurisdictions (if any exist) can be bypassed. Even entire states can be bypassed.

Denied permit applications would be public record, and would be posted on the internet for all to see. If they were denied without basis, they would be challenged in court.

Commercial real estate developers get permits against political opposition all the time - this is a well known process with lots of people that "know now to get it done."

Tesla has experience putting in SCs; if they experienced permitting and other "red tape" trouble that caused increased lead time, they could simply start each SC process sooner, change their rollout schedule to reflect their learnings, or both.

I have never seen a statement from Tesla saying "red tape", utility hookups, or anything else was an issue for them rolling out SCs. These seem to originate from speculation that eventually become accepted as fact.

Another explanation could be the "chicken and egg" argument. Since they have as many eggs (orders) as they can handle, why spend money for more chickens now and exasperbate the backlog, increase order-to-delivery time, and frustrate customers? When sales begin to lag production capacity, they can simply rollout some chickens and capture the "build it and we will buy" segment.

They will, of course, keep rolling out some SCs so the "red tapers" have some cover and marketing can keep hyping the Elon cross country trip - though they are curiously vague on the timing of that trip.

But it is all speculation as to whether the SCs are being held up by red tape and external factors, or are being slow-rolled by Tesla.

The purpose of this thread is just to track the actual progress vs their schedule - which is somewhere around 5 or 6 superchargers a week through the end of this year.

It does not look they the first week of Fall saw any SCs opened.

Al1 | September 29, 2013

As a public company Tesla has to report quarterly. Anything in between is solely their own discretion.

Market will carefully watch their results, and since production capacity is more or less known, a lot will depend on profit margin.

What is the impact of each operational station on the bottom line? I guess not all of it will be capitalized.

Meanwhile grey dots, are just that - grey dots.

I expect Tesla won't try to build too many of them. Couple of strategic locations, - to North-South corridors operational. Most of the stations will remain in grey. Which by the way exactly matches their plan. Until grey dots remain in grey area there won't be dozen of new additions. So let's not get carried away by hype.

sellnout | September 29, 2013

I was at the new Roseville CA Tesla store yesterday. It only opened two weeks ago. I was disappointed to see there was not a supercharger. The staff said they are not sure if one will be installed at the location and suggested I lobby for one. It would be a great location for travel between San Francisco and Tahoe on 80. Seems like a natural location, but no guarantee they will have one there. It is also not too far out of the way for north/south travel on I5 (i.e. better than what is currently available on Hwy 50 in my opinion).

tes-s | September 29, 2013

@AL1 - 100 superchargers by the end of this year is Tesla's statement. You think they don't have any intention of doing it?

My impression is they try to portray themselves as "under promise and over deliver" - they are exceeding their sales and production numbers.

Brian H | September 29, 2013

VG;
You seem to be trying to morph the SCs from a long-distance convenience to a daily use one. Wrong concept.

Kleist;
SCs are not part of present or future revenue streams for TM. That whole schtick has been handed off to Solar City, which is in the electricity business. Wrong concept.

Kleist | September 29, 2013

Brian - are you sure? Also does that create a liability to Tesla? Tesla makes electrical storage - one time charge or lease?

Al1 | September 29, 2013

"@AL1 - 100 superchargers by the end of this year is Tesla's statement. You think they don't have any intention of doing it?"

Based on current momentum 100 superchargers by the end of this year is simply impossible. But more importantly I am not aware of such a statement made by Tesla.

The link you've provided doesn't have any Tesla statement regarding the timeline. Rather, journalist's interpretation of Tesla intentions.

erici | September 29, 2013

@goneskiian "Solar City is making money off of the residential installations which subsidizes the cost of the electricity being used elsewhere by the Superchargers."

Yes, Solar City is making money from installing residential solar. I understand your point there.

But how does that get Tesla a subsidy for electricity at superchargers? These are separate companies.

Benz | September 30, 2013

@Kleist

First I also had the impression that the Supercharger network was a future revenue generator. But later on I changed my mind. Supercharger capability comes with a price, but that's for the hardware en software technology that will be added to the Model S.

I think that we should first understand what the goal of Tesla Motors is: "Accelerate the advent of sustainable transport". That comes down to: "More and more zero emission vehicles, the sooner the better".

I don't think that Elon Musk wants to make money with the Supercharger network. I think that the Supercharger network has been created to take away one of the major doubts about EV's in general and to make long distance travel possible. And the aim is to sell more and more Tesla EV's. And that's just what is happening. This Supercharger network is functioning very well already. It has become one of the reasons to buy a Model S. The people know that they will be able to make long distance travel for free. So, they decide to step away from the ICE and to choose the Model S instead. And that's just what Elon Musk wants to happen. Every year the sales figures of Tesla EV's will be higher than the year before. And then the investment in the Supercharger network will look very tiny and a very wise idea. Even the cost of the electricity will be covered by Solar City.

Benz | September 30, 2013

The Supercharger network is actually the key item in successfully answering the question: "How to accelerate the advent of sustainable transport"?

djwill | September 30, 2013

I thought about this driving to a Supercharger location yesterday to make a trip...

- Has a Supercharger ever been down or out-of-service?

- How would one know in advance?

It might really throw one in a bind to arrive with a few miles left and find the SC inop. Add to this maybe being late at night and you'd have a sporting challenge on your hands. It's not like you'll just divert to the next corner station.

I've not had my S very long, but it got me to thinking.

Thx

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