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Signature S pricing

Signature S pricing

Hello,

I got off a call from the rep few weeks back with an unsure answer. What is the approx pricing of the Signature S? He said it is going to be 'comparable' to a BMW 5-series. Well, that could be anywhere between 60k-85k....

Anybody has any insight?

Regards,
Sharad

Mycroft | November 17, 2011

Fortunately for me, I already have a 200 amp service in my garage. Even so, and even though I'm capable of installing everything myself, the cost of the cable to where I would want to install the HPC would probably still be a couple thousand.

VPLACE | November 18, 2011

I am limited to a 240v/50a breaker in my garage sub panel.
I have contracted Solar City to do the install for me.
Assumptions:
Model-S Sig has a 240v/40a built in AC/DC charger, included in Sig price (correct??)
My Wall mount outlet (box) is prewired to be Sig compatible.

I have a few related questons for you ...all:

1. I believe that Tesla is designing a custom 'Adapter' to plug into the EV from the wall outlet (also customized to Tesla).
2. Is this 'adapter' included in the Sig Price???
3. When I am traveling, and need to charge 'on the road'....will I need and 'additonal' adapter to connect to the 'standard' road side charging station and also to the "custom" Sig input plug???
4.Or will Tesla also provide this along with the "Signature options?

Mycroft | November 18, 2011

1. Yes. It's called the HPC-2. Specs haven't been released yet, but it should be designed to be hard-wired into 80-90 amps. Unless you upgrade to the second 10kw charger in the car, the HPC will be overkill.

2. No, the HPC-2 will most likely NOT be included with the Sig.

3. Other than the cable to plug into 110v (and probably 220v) outlets, we don't know what adapters will be included.

4. Unknown.

As long as you have a 50-amp outlet, it's believed that you should be able to charge up the car in under 5 hours with the standard 10kw charger.

VPLACE | November 18, 2011

Mycroft - thanks for the timely response.

In your 11/12/11 comment on Sig options, you Listed the 'Sport' option at $10k.

Could you please elaborate on what the 'Sport' options entails!
Thanks

Mycroft | November 18, 2011

That's a wild-ass guess. The sport will most likely require that you upgrade to the 300 mile and air suspension options

It will include a modified drive train and it might include higher quality brakes. My understanding is that there is a debate going on about if there will be badging and style mods similar to what Mercedes does with AMG.

It might also require or include the 21" wheels, but that's a little iffy-er.

I'm guessing that the Sport package will be a $10k upgrade from Sig. It would be more from the base 300 because options such as air suspension and 21" wheels will most likely be included in the Signature standard package.

As I've said, the Sport package is what got me to sign up for Signature. Might as well get the car a little earlier if I'm going to buy most of the options for the Sport package anyway. I'm really excited about it! This 5 seat station wagon will accelerate faster than my SLK55 AMG!!!

Brian H | November 18, 2011

VPlace;
In case you hadn't guessed, Mycroft's friends (and others) call him either 'Jackrabbit' or 'Hophead'. He fantasizes about being Evil Knievel. <:-0 Serious adrenaline addict.

Or SLT. ;)

Designtime | November 18, 2011

At the Bellevue event they did say that the sport option would require the 300 mile battery.

brianman | November 19, 2011

@Mycroft

Sometime next year we should find a place to race to see who can get the *least* range on a single charge (by driving 'too' fast).

Robert.Boston | November 19, 2011

At the risk of overlap with Mycroft's answers, let me try a slightly different way:

  1. Yes, there's a cable that will plug into your 240V/50A NEMA 14-50 outlet at one end and the Model S the other. This will provide enough power to fully utilize the 10kW charger built into the Model S
  2. Yes, the cable and one 10kW on-board charger are included in the base price of the Model S.
  3. The answer depends on what power sources you find along the road. The included cable plugs into standard 120V and 240V outlets and, possibly, more. It is likely that you will need an adapter, available from Tesla, to use J1772 chargers. It is unclear what other charging standards can be accessed.
  4. It's unknown what will be in the Sig package, though throwing in free adapters seems to me unlikely.

Of course, these answers are based on tidbits gleaned second-hand from Tesla employees as reported on forums. I would wait to hire the electrician until Tesla has released official specs.

Brant | November 19, 2011

CHARGING

PLUG IN ANYWHERE
Model S comes standard with everything you need to plug into the most common 240-volt outlet, standard 120-volt wall outlets and public stations.

I think it is going to be difficult for Tesla to back up this statement (with a straight face) without including a J1772 adapter as standard equipment.

JimBl | November 19, 2011

Has anyone heard when final pricing and options will be announced? Is there an established date to post.

Mycroft | November 19, 2011

Yes, they've said "this Winter" which gives them a three month window. I believe Elon has mentioned something about "by the end of the year" or some-such.

That said, I'm expecting everything to be revealed in the first couple weeks of January after the holiday cycle. Hopefully I'm wrong and they'll do it sooner.

Kallisman | November 19, 2011

In the design center for the Signature it says December.

Mycroft | November 19, 2011

Sounds good to me!

Andrew18 | November 19, 2011

Me too!

brianman | November 19, 2011

In Design Studio for signature and non-signature, it says "coming this winter" for me.

Discoducky | November 19, 2011

"Coming this winter" could be as late as the first day of spring? Ugh, friggin March 20th. Really hope it isn't that long.

michiganmodels | November 19, 2011

@Kallisan - Where does it say December in the design studio?

Kallisman | November 20, 2011

@michiganmodels - I was sure I read december there, but now that I check it says coming this winter for me too. Also before I was sure I only saw info about options on the signature, and not on the standard S, but now it's on both. I might be wrong, or they might have updated the design studio. Sorry if I have misinformed you.

Leofingal | November 20, 2011

A couple weeks ago I got a 4-6 week target, (which corresponds to Decemberish), but maybe they are backing off a bit?

Mycroft | November 20, 2011

I think Elon is shooting for finalization of the options and pricing by the end of the year, but they're leaving themselves some elbowroom in case they don't meet that deadline.

I have a hard time getting a handle on the process. The first step is to make a final decision on the option. Then they have to source the components (hopefully from multiple vendors). Next they have to figure the full amount of materials cost including consumables for the option and the amount of labor/energy involved. Once all that's done, they have to figure pricing/markup. That's not even figuring in the development and setup costs.

Personally, I wouldn't want to start up a car company from scratch. Too much work! Thank goodness for guys like those running Tesla who are capable of it.

Brian H | November 20, 2011

Mycroft;
Indeed! So many variables, so few constants. It arithmatically moggles the bind. I bet their industrial accountants are burning a lot of midnight oil!

Robert.Boston | November 21, 2011

Not to mention the market research that should be going on alongside the engineering. It's one thing to conclude that option X is going to cost you $Y to install (accounting for all relevant costs); it's another thing to figure out what multiplier (> 1.0) that you're going to put on that option. To do that wisely, you have to understand consumer preferences, demands, expectations, and value perceptions. That makes the engineering look almost easy....

Brian H | November 21, 2011

There's the snob factor to consider, too. The story goes that Chevy market-researched cutting Caddy prices, as it only costs 20% more than a standard Chev to make. The upshot was that it would reduce profits and sales, as the existing and target markets wanted the price high enough to keep it "exclusive".

Soflauthor | November 23, 2011

Just ran across this link, and I'm not sure it's been cited in the forum:

http://www.trefis.com/company?hm=TSLA.trefis#

The reason I mention it is that it provided a rather detailed outlook for TSLA stock and addresses some of the factors that should be considered in projecting short and mid term price. Indirectly, it provides insight into Sig pricing. The authors note:

The Trefis price estimate for Tesla Motors is extremely sensitive to the gross margin forecast. Management is targeting a long-term gross margin of 25% on electric vehicles and we have taken that figure in our forecasts. However, if Tesla is unable to deliver on its gross margin target, there could be a significant downside to the stock. For example, if gross margins decline by 2.5 percentage points (to 22.5%), the Trefis price estimate for Tesla's stock falls nearly 30% to $28. Conversely, if management exceeds its target and is able to maintain a 27.5% gross margin, there could be a 30% upside to the Trefis price estimate. The main factors impacting gross margin include a) retail price of Tesla vehicles, b) materials and manufacturing costs, and c) economies of scale in production. Retail price depends on Tesla's ability to sell high margin options and accessories to customers, as well as the percentage of international sales, which command higher retail prices.

There's really no news in any of this, except the projection that a small variation in gross margin (2.5%) has a disproportionate impact of TSLA price (~30%). If TM management is looking at the stock ticker (and they are), it's likely that Model S optional equipment will be priced to ensure a gross margin that will impress the market. I suspect that those posters who think that TM will reward Sig list dwellers with discounted optional equipment prices are going to be disappointed.

Soflauthor | November 23, 2011

Sigh. Sorry.

doesn't indent!!

The paragraph beginning "The Trefis price ..." is a direct quote. The rest is mine.

Soflauthor | November 23, 2011

Damn this editor! Let's try this one more time.

The HTML tag blockquote doesn't indent!!

The paragraph beginning "The Trefis price ..." is a direct quote. The rest is mine.

Mycroft | November 23, 2011

"those posters who think that TM will reward Sig list dwellers with discounted optional equipment prices are going to be disappointed."

Yep, not news to me.

An alternate view could be that the Sigs are only 1,200 cars for North America, so the gross margin isn't as great a requirement for them. It's when they're rolling 20,000 per year that it's important.

Volker.Berlin | November 24, 2011

When the Roadster was first introduced, it's cost of manufacturing exceeded revenues from sales (negative gross margin). While not specifically anticipating a negative gross margin for the Model S, management has mentioned this possibility in the risk factors in the 10-K filing. Hence we believe Model S margins will be low in the first year of launch, and gradually pick up towards 25%.
http://www.trefis.com/company?hm=TSLA.trefis#/TSLA/n-1661/1694?c=top&fro...

This is another paragraph from the same source. When taken together, to me they do not suggest anything substantial with regard to Signature price/options. Thanks for the link, anyway!

Brian H | November 24, 2011

sofl;
Yeah, the editor is retarded. Try italics for quotes, but not that each paragraph break automatically closes all tags, so you have to re-enter then each para. HTML for and by dummies.

Brian H | November 24, 2011

Arg. Edit typo: "but note that"...

A webmaster is being grossly overpaid.

Brian H | November 24, 2011

And I've been getting persistent typekit javascript errors and hangs. (Prev sentence took 35 seconds to display, e.g.)

Brian H | November 24, 2011

"A script on this page may be busy, or it may have stopped responding. You can stop the script now, or you can continue to see if the script will complete.

Script: http://use.typekit.com/nkf3plp.js:19"

David den Boer | November 26, 2011

Rep at Santana Row said they had the final pricing sheet but didn't elaborate for me. Going back in the morning to have a look at the "Engineering Build" S.

Kallisman | November 26, 2011

@Brian H
How do you know the webmaster is getting paid, and how much? Cos this would work better if it was done as a hobby?

EdG | November 26, 2011

I wonder if the price list will be made public before or after the last Signature slot is taken.

The relationship (in time) could make it interesting if the Signature pricing is anything lower than expected. If higher - well, the Signature holders can always switch to a lower version.

Robert.Boston | November 26, 2011

I'm betting that, once the Sig list is nominally full, Tesla will create a waiting list for Signature reservations to replace abandoned reservations. They want to deliver 1,200 Signature cars in North America.

Brian H | November 26, 2011

Everything suddenly cleared up! Even the spam in General has stopped.

What a relief ...

Mycroft | November 26, 2011

Tesla has options besides a waiting list. They could use unclaimed Signatures in their showrooms, both as show cars and as instant purchases.

David M. | November 27, 2011

@Mycroft - The showrooms will already have cars on display by the end of the first quarter 2012. Tesla will want to sell every Sig that comes off the line.

Mycroft | November 27, 2011

True, but if they screw up the pricing, they may end up with extras.

Robert.Boston | November 27, 2011

I'll bet you dinner, Mycroft, that Tesla will have no problem selling all 1,200 North American Sigs.

Mycroft | November 27, 2011

The announcement of pricing will be the key. Either they'll sell out (if they haven't already), or they'll have a rash of returns.

Robert.Boston | November 27, 2011

So, Mycroft, are you taking me up on my bet? :-) I buy you a great dinner if they can't sell the Sigs?

Mycroft | November 27, 2011

Heck no, that's a sucker's bet! No, I believe they'll sell out and I also don't think they'll screw up badly on the pricing. I'm just pointing out the obvious that it could go sideways.

Discoducky | November 27, 2011

I agree they will sellout of the 1200 Sigs as well, but the question is when? As early as January given the price list comes out in December or as late as July/August when buyers will be able to ride in a production vehicle?

I'd bet it's somewhere in between closer to Jan since more will need to drive the car but options pricing will show Tesla beats the competition dollar for dollar.

Mycroft | November 27, 2011

With their nationwide show & tell going on, I think they'll sell out the Sigs in December before pricing is announced.

Robert.Boston | November 28, 2011

Agreed, Mycroft; they've been getting Sig reservations at a rate of 4/day pretty consistently since the Fremont event, based on the spotty data we have on the Tally thread. That implies hitting S+SSL=1000 before Dec. 20. What we don't know is how many drop-outs they've already had on the S and SSL lists; presumably they will keep taking reservations until they have 1,000 active reservations.

Brian H | November 28, 2011

And then, when the drop-outs realize what a horrible mistake they've made, they'll be urgently calling, emailing, writing, on bended knees, "Can I re-change my mind? Please? I'll pay extra!!"

;DD

The Froq | December 1, 2011

For me there's a lot of new information in this video about the pricing and the options of the Signature.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CjnL573Tcc&feature=related

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