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German pricing, I'm in tears and out of the game

German pricing, I'm in tears and out of the game

In Germany the Tesla Model S will cost MORE €UROS THAN $ IN US!... so, the price is more than 30% above the US-pricing!
That's real bad, Teslas. I'm a stockholder, reservationholder and follower since 2010, but this is just ... wordless.
Better, I use my ICE for the next Years and everyone else should, too ... the teslaguys always told me, there will be more or less 15% priceincrease, but 30%?
71000€ for the 60KW/h and more than 100.000€ pricing for the performance is just barefaced.
If Your goal is to bring EV's to a broader market, just make a fair price!

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-12-20/tesla-begins-europe-push-with-h...

Volker.Berlin | December 20, 2012

And to clear the confusion, I live in Germany, not a German though. (Vall)

Good to know, welcome! Where exactly do you live? Are you going to purchase a "German" Model S?

NielsChr | December 20, 2012

The EU vs US price increase is aprox 14% (EU/US 0,78)

A price increase was expected, after all they have opened up shops and will also need to ship the car and make it EU ready + some additional development cost.

I belive the EU price is just spot on, neither higher nor lower than expected.

SMOP | December 20, 2012

@Jacques the three phase charger will be exclusive to Euro models only. There was a video posted here a few weeks back of the Tesla engineer who is responsible for this design; discussing the connector. It is not out of the question that the connector may be physically different than what is currently used on Model S'.

olanmills | December 20, 2012

Who did not expect that Europrean pricing would be higher by a significant margin?

(that's a rhetorical question)

Captain_Zap | December 20, 2012

It sounds like the exchange rate can take some of the blame.

I recall a time when the Euro was less than a Dollar. They were close to par for some time. I used to visit Europe much more then. As the Euro got stronger, my holidays got shorter and less frequent.

Don't forget the value of not having to buy petroleum products. It will make us all stronger in the long run.

DTsea | December 20, 2012

There are no VATs in the US, anywhere. There are sales taxes, which are added to the price at time of sale, and they vary not only by state but by county and city. A VAT is paid at each transfer between suppliers and is part of wholesale price, at least theoretically. So... 20% VAT (sales tax, basically) + 10% import duty (you guys should get on the European parliament about that) is +30%. Here in the US we don't have import duties on foreign cars. Sales taxes vary between about 4% and 10%.

But then there are incentives from the US and local governments. The US government gives a $7500 personal income tax credit for EVs or PHEVs with battery at least 16kWh. California has a state income tax credit. Washington state (sales tax 9-10%) waives the sales tax on pure EVs.

Of course, on the other hand, gas is far more expensive in Europe due to yet more taxes. Here in the US right now it is about $3.30/gallon. That is, I think (using 1 euro=$1.40) about 0.62 euros/liter. So, although thanks to your import and VAT taxes the car COSTS more, but it also SAVES much more due to the very high gas prices in Europe.

My experience from living in Europe is that for a person doing the same job as in the US, pay is lower, taxes are higher, and cost of living is higher still. So, one solution of course is to emigrate.... we welcome our European friends to the USA! Then you can get your Model S at US prices!

Brian H | December 20, 2012

If you combine the import duty (10%) and VAT (19%) that's pretty much the whole increase. Looks like the transport etc. costs are minimal.

Frank Herfjord | December 20, 2012

DTsea Europe is many-faceted. In Norway, the starting wage at McDonalds is $25 and hour if you're 20 years or older, with another $5 for working weekends and nights. I don't think the US can quite match that ;-)

olanmills | December 21, 2012

"In Norway, the starting wage at McDonalds is $25 and hour if you're 20 years or older, with another $5 for working weekends and nights."

What?!!!

What is wrong with you guys? How much are large fries? $10?

Timo | December 21, 2012

2.20 EUR in Finland. Translates to about $2.90. "Pay is lower" is relative term, it depends of what kind of job is in question. Pretty much everywhere in Europe minimum wages are quite a bit higher than US so low level positions usually have quite a bit higher salaries than equal jobs in US. High level positions probably pay less but OTOH you get a lot with less money, for example education is basically free, no huge college funds needed for kids.

Frank Herfjord | December 21, 2012

Spreadin the wealth baby! The 99 percent in Norway is just 80 percent.

tomas.hutters | December 21, 2012

Gee, Frank, I did not know that Norway was a communist country! Kidding, hoping to side a bit with you in teasing our American friends - I am Danish ;-)

Getting Amped Again | December 21, 2012

We Americans all drive SUV's, own guns and have kids like Honey Boo Boo. Plus all the young people in New Jersey are disfunctional morons and we have good- looking vampires. That about sums it up.

Brian H | December 21, 2012

Jolinar got it about right:
Jolinar | December 20, 2012
...
Signature performance in EU before VAT is $109,748 (83409€ = 91750/1.1) price increase included, import duty (10%) excluded
.
That means Tesla increased price only by $1848 (1405€) as transport and other business expenses, which seems quite impressive.
Other expenses can't be affected by Tesla :(

That's about 1.7%. Minus transport and final assembly, that comes to 0% price increase.

Quicherbitchin'.

Getting Amped Again | December 21, 2012

I feel bad for the German reservation holders. Every country should be providing incentives for the adoption of BEVs, imported or otherwise.

gianni.terragni | December 22, 2012

My S costs 10.000€ - 1700$ with italian prices, about the cost of a city-car. I hope to be wrong

gianni.terragni | December 22, 2012

My S costs 10.000€ - 1700$ more with italian prices, about the cost of a city-car. I hope to be wrong

Timo | December 22, 2012

Getting Amped Soon +1.

I feel like I should move to Norway.

BjörnF | December 22, 2012

Going off lurking mode:

The 60 kWh version costs 647 000 SEK (607 000 after our 40 000 SEK "super environment car" subsidy ) in Sweden according to this article:

http://www.automotorsport.se/artiklar/nyheter/20121221/tesla-model-s-kom...

The dollar is currently worth 6.5 SEK which means that the base price without import duty and VAT would be 454350 SEK. The import duty fee is 10% and then we have a 25% VAT on top of that which leads to a final price of 624371 SEK (~68000€).

647000 - 624371 = 22629 SEK difference. But this is with the duty fee and VAT included. Removing the duty fee and VAT makes it a 16500 SEK difference, or approximately 2500 $. That's just 3.5% more then the price in the US.

I'm extremely impressed by this, assuming that i got everything right :-) Can't wait for the next generation (generation 3) cross-over to be released in Sweden.

BjörnF | December 22, 2012

As a comparison, the Chevy Volt costs 434 000 SEK (before the 40 000 subsidy) in Sweden, or 430000/1.25/1.1/6.5 (/VAT/duty/dollar exchange rate) = 48559 $. The price in the US is 39145 $ if i'm not mistaken. Now that is a rip-off.

The Nissan Leaf costs 41400$ in Sweden using the same calculations. Less of a rip-off then the Volt perhaps, but not by much.

Volker.Berlin | December 22, 2012

I feel bad for the German reservation holders. Every country should be providing incentives for the adoption of BEVs, imported or otherwise.

Getting Amped Soon, thank you for feeling with us. Problem is, as you can easily imagine, that the auto manufacturers' lobby is very influential in Germany. You know, employment and stuff... As an aside: That's probably the main reason why there is still no speed limit on the Autobahn. Since, the German manufacturers simply did not get it til now and have plain nothing to offer in terms of EVs, any incentive for EVs would exclusively support sales of foreign manufacturers... No way!

(My own opinion is, that's wrong. Not just because I could use some support to ease the purchase of my Model S, but mainly because that would be the kick in the ass of the local auto industry that seems to be so urgently needed...)

timingbeltkiller | December 22, 2012

In Scandinavia the span between high-wage earners and low-wage ones is much less than in the US.

Hence there is a borderline where employees below earn more in S and the ones above earn more in the US. These borderline is way higher up the social ladder than most US citizens think.

DouglasR | December 22, 2012

A word about the governmental incentives for the purchase of electric vehicles in the U.S. and elsewhere: they can be viewed as a counterweight to the incentives already provided for the purchase of ICE vehicles.

For example, ICE drivers are not required to pay for the right to dump emissions into the atmosphere. Where else are you allowed to dump your garbage without paying for the privilege? ICE drivers also benefit from the many gas and oil subsidies provided by the government, from tax benefits to drilling rights (not even counting the costs of guaranteeing energy security). These externalities are taken for granted, whereas incentives provided for the purchase of electric vehicles are often viewed as governmental interference in the marketplace.

Antinomie | December 22, 2012

Sorry for my english... en français à la fin

What a disappointment!

Since 2010, I am following very regularly the current events of TESLA. I firmly hoped to drive Model S in 2013 or 2014 at the latest. It has been a long time since I configured it. It has been a long time since praise TESLA in my circle of acquaintances. I tried Roadster in Paris and in Monaco.

I have just discovered the European prices of Model S and we are very very far from the prices announced at first.

More of 80K€ for one 85Kw with a minimum of equipment, it is very far from the 60K€ which had been announced in a period. More of 100K€ for the version signature... of which to cry.

At this price, it is not any more a car top of the range, but a limousine of exception. Little vehicle reach such tariff summits. (BMW 7, Audi A8, Mercedes CLS or S.)

I am out !

Clearly, at this price, I cannot follow. It is thus with a heavy heart and particularly disappointed that I am going to have to make a cross on this Model S so wished...

Antinomie | December 22, 2012

Quelle déception !

Depuis 2010, je suis très régulièrement l'actualité de TESLA. J'espérais fermement rouler en Model S en 2013 ou 2014 au plus tard. Il y a longtemps que je l'ai configurée. Il y a longtemps que fais les éloges de TESLA dans mon entourage. J'ai essayé la Roadster à Paris et à Monaco.

Je viens de découvrir les prix européens de la Model S et nous sommes très très loin des prix annoncés au départ.

Plus de 80K€ pour une 85Kw avec un un minimum d'équipement, c'est bien loin des 60K€ qui avaient été annoncés à une époque. Plus de 100K€ pour la version signature... de quoi pleurer.

A ce prix là, ce n'est plus une familiale haut de gamme, mais une limousine d'exception. Peu de véhicule atteignent de tels sommets tarifaires. (BMW 7, Audi A8, Mercedes CLS ou S...)

Je suis hors jeux !

Clairement, à ce prix, je ne pourrai pas suivre. C'est donc la mort dans l'âme et particulièrement déçu que je vais devoir faire une croix sur cette Model S tant désirée...

Getting Amped Again | December 22, 2012

@DouglasR - that was very eloquently stated and I think reflects the views of many of us.

Carefree | December 22, 2012

Antinomie, did you read all the comments above yours? Do not blame Tesla for European pricing. It is your governments taxes and import duties which make the Model S more expensive in Europe than in the US. Take the time and compute what the car really costs. Take the US price, add VAT, add import duties and THEN compare. Surely you do not expect Tesla to pay for your country's taxes?

Remember all prices in US exclude ALL taxes!

jkirkebo | December 22, 2012

I'm a little surprised about the amount of people disappointed in the prices. Surely one could quite accurately estimate what the final price would be earlier, including VAT and import taxes ?

My estimate before pricing was released was 650k NOK for my configuration (perf with everything but the child seats), the result ended up being 659k NOK. Actually my estimate was on the high end but them not including the 21" wheels with the performance package threw the calcultion a little off. I'm not too happy about the wheel thing, but the rest is squarely in line with what I expected.

dirk.saenen | December 22, 2012

YOLO !

simenteigen | December 22, 2012

If the model s becomes "too" popular in Norway. A tax will come.

So far, so good. Every other thing in this country is heavy taxed, but average wages are high though.

The combustion cars are so heavy taxed in Norway, most of us are pleasently surpriced about the model s price tag.

Brian H | December 22, 2012

Timo | December 22, 2012
Getting Amped Soon +1.
.
I feel like I should move to Norway.

Does Norway allow Finns to immigrate? Risky!

;)

GeirT | December 23, 2012

Actually, the Norwegian government has set a ceiling for tax/VAT free "fully electrical powered cars" to 50,000 total. With the rate of sales this spring that target was scheduled to happen in 2017, with approx. 10,000 cars registered over the last 5 years or so. With the rate of sales of Tesla S mainly due to the very favourable comparative pricing, my guess is that will happen long before. Latest rumour is more than a <1,000 reservations as of today. Norway is the largest market outside the US as mentioned by a fellow Norwegian in this string.
I was told to expect my P8 in Q3.....

Captain_Zap | December 23, 2012

I love Europe. I'd be willing to pay more in taxes to have that quality of life. Awesome transit, support of the arts, culture, heritage and communities. If only I could convince my spouse...
My spouse is half Finnish and half Norwegian. See my problem?

I'm Danish, Irish, Scottish and First Nations. See his problem?

;-)

Mark E | December 23, 2012

Here in Australia we get no concessions at all for EVs, not in registration or usage. We even get the same luxury car tax applied as ICE vehicles. The only concession is for 'efficient' vehicles whose fuel consumption is less than 7 l/100km, and that is to adjust the luxury car threshold to about $75k, from about $57k. Before all the Americans jump in, a BMW 3 series here is $70k.

As for quoted US prices, I learned a long time ago that none of these include taxes of any kind, making them look considerably cheaper. When we (in Australia) talk about the price it includes all taxes other than stamp duty (transfer fees), and registration.

If Tesla can keep the base price here close to the $US price then the $100k Model S will be close to $140k here, I hope. The Roadster ended up being ridiculously priced at just on $250k.

dborn @nsw.au | December 23, 2012

MarkE- See my calcs on the Asia/Pacific thread n TMC. Your input would be appreciated.

silvio.k | February 17, 2013

I'm out too. I expected to buy the Tesla Model S with the 40 kWh battery, but unfortunately this version is not available in Europe.

So I just bought a normal car. I hope that when I replace my car in 8 - 10 years, that Tesla is still around with more mass market EVs up to US$ 50K.

Brian H | February 17, 2013

silvio;
You should be long into the GenIII era, by then!

drp | February 17, 2013

Most of the dispute is not Tesla's issue. It is, as all have said, Germany and or most of the EU tax and import issues. tesla is a bargain

Brian H | February 17, 2013

Yeah, it's the German Taxman making you cry and get out of the Tesla game. Exactly what he wants?

HiteshBhatt | February 18, 2013

Just came back from a trip to Europe for business purpose... Their petrol cost is around Euro 1.65/liter. Which equates to about $8.40/gal. This is more than twice the petrol rate in US. Here in Massachusetts, our petrol rate is about $3.80/gal (0.75 Euro/liter).
If I can make a financially viable calculate for going with Tesla at US petrol rates, I think the roughly 15% extra (to cover for transport costs) is not going to slow down the demand in Europe. Especially, considering that most cars typically cost far more than the 15% of US pricing.

Kleist | February 18, 2013

Brian - car export is big business for Germany like Japan. Both countries consume around 3 million cars a year, but produce 6 million in the country. However both have no oil, so the political pressure for alternative fuels is much higher then the US.

krissu | February 18, 2013

I did reserv my S as well, the pricing is honest vs. US. In Estonia we get 18000 EUR cash support from state for such car. Tesla S will go on my wifes name, as every citizen has right for one such incentive and I already got it for my Leaf. I still have parents and sister and brother and kids... TM of course loves to compare their S to German top brands, but they are very far from them. I consider my S as a real adventure, one of cars main features is reliabilty and looking into Teslas experience vs all other producers you can't really have ANY hopes. One thing which I for sure will not order is air suspension. Thats far the weakest part of luxury brands cars who dare to have it. First few years it's fine, but after 5+ years in colder climate even Porsche can't get it reliable. It's also vital part of vehicle. I really like the concept of Tesla S, thats why I reserved it. Give it some more years and it will be a nice product. Hopefully when I get my car many things are already improved. I took a testdrive a month ago, drivetrain and looks are great, finishing work...chinese level. Model X shall be one of the worst looking cars in 2014 motor world, but thats entirely my personal taste, S looks are almost perfect. Let's see what they will work out for charging, but plan of their own supercharger network in Europe is a really good reason not to buy their stock. They should really get chademo capabilty. I'm just so bored with ordinary cars and can't wait for my cool and expensive adventure! It makes your day when you see it in your garage every morning!

Jolinar | February 18, 2013

@kristjan.sinisoo

very interesting point of view! I agree (and disagree) in a lot of points.

silvio.k | February 20, 2013

It's not the german tax.

I'm living in Switzerland and I compare the prices net without tax.

The price is really higher at least here in Switzerland.

The biggest "problem" is that the 40 kWh version is not offered here in Europe. Unfortunately the 40 kWh version would be the right fit for me. My daily drive distance in total is about 20 km. If I drive to the next big city (Zurich) then the distance each way is 30 km, so 60 km total.

So it would make sense to offer the 40 kWh version in Europe, because everything is smaller. Compared to the USA where the larger version makes sense because of the bigger driving distances.

Carl Barlev | February 20, 2013

Good point silvio,

There are many more potential customers in EU countries who could be potential Model S customers if the smallest battery option were offered here also... exactly as in examples such as yours.

I only commute 6 km each way to/from work and the furthest I would ever drive (except on holiday) is 40 km to the airport (80 km return). So a 40 kWh Model S would be great as a "second car" for 95 % of our commuting requirements (except we don't have any car at present, so it would actually be our only car).

But I'm actually considering the 85 kWh option for the sake of the other 5 % of trips (ie - to visit family in Denmark or friends in Germany). Of course we'll have to stop to charge, but it'll certainly be faster than biking.

Yes, we do actually bike from Oslo to Denmark. Last time was a 12-day trip = 8 days on the road and 4 days with family at the destination. Compared to these figures, the odd 30 minute charge-stop will seem a dream :)

jchangyy | February 20, 2013

@krist...porche is not a reliable car. at least the one's here in the US.

jkirkebo | February 20, 2013

Silvio: With those short distances I don't think a Model S fits the bill at all, you should probably be looking at the iMiEV or the Leaf at most.

And we do drive long distances here in Norway. The days I take the Model S out of the garange, it will most probably do at least 120 miles that day. We already have a Leaf for the short trips but need a long distance car too. I'd happily pay $10k extra for a 110kWh battery...

Brian H | February 20, 2013

My guesstimate is that TM figured there were lots of small EVs in Europe able to do the 150 km range, and wanted to be in a distinct class. Given the size of the car (dictated by the large battery/skateboard), the urban commuting market is not "favourable ground" to compete in. But no one else offers the 250-400 km. EV option. BTW, did you notice the S/H hints by Elon that SC was about to get a step-change improvement in charging speed? So maybe the 30-min stops will become 10-15.

Vawlkus | February 23, 2013

I still think the main reason behind the 40's exclusion from Europe is the wall voltage. I don't think the 40's can make the switch easily enough, whereas the 60s and 85s can.

Maybe I'm wrong, but that's my guess.

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