120-140KWh Battery Pack!

120-140KWh Battery Pack!

If Tesla comes up with 120KWh to 140KWh battery pack in 5 to 6 years, will u be willing to pay for a swap?? If so, up to how much, and what will be the fair way to that......calculate based on mileage on car or #of full discharges of current pack??

Jean PierreD | July 9, 2013

yes, of course

Carefree | July 9, 2013

It depends. If the Supercharger network is built out and I can do my long distance travels without too much headache, then I might stick with my 85 battery. It really is more than enough for my everyday needs.

cloroxbb | July 9, 2013

It depends on whether I would rather just upgrade to the most recent Tesla vehicle release. Model S is future proof to an extent, but if they eventually upgrade to Nvidia Tegra 4 or deliver a plethora of other option that cannot be retrofitted onto the Model S.

If the replacement battery 85 is 14,000 then I would expect the 120 - 140 to at least be 20,000-25,000. Just my opinion though, but based on today's figures instead of 6 years from now

edfinn | July 9, 2013

Not just for the battery, assuming the superchargers (and possibly other recharging infrastructure) is in place as hoped. Charging at home is more than adequate for all of my normal driving, so an upgrade would only be for road trips.

cloroxbb | July 9, 2013

Remember, larger the pack, the theoretical higher/faster performance...

dtesla | July 9, 2013

5 years (say 70K miles from now) trading in my 85KW with 225 max mile(?) battery for a new shiny 120 KW 375 mile battery with a 8 year warranty would be very attractive. Since several time per year I drive 500 miles/day.

My normal 30 minute lunch stop would give me enough range to complete my 500 mile day. I could fully charge overnight and repeat if necessary.

That being said, I likely could not justify the delta cost. So I would pay the $100 (or so) cost of a 120KW battery swap when I needed the extra range.

elguapo | July 9, 2013

Not just for the battery. I agree with @cloroxxbb regarding processors. That's something that is outdated the minute it's installed.

Jewsh | July 9, 2013

Larger packs probably will need a software and potentially a hardware upgrade. I would imagine Tesla will leave the current Model S packs as they are on 2013 production units even if something better comes along. New Model S' may have better packs and new vehicle types going forward may also benefit from better chemistry, larger cell count, etc.

The issue is probably validation of new packs and new chemistries. I hear it can be time consuming and if there are only a few of us geeky enough to consider spending tens of thousands of dollars to upgrade... you can draw your own conclusions. :-)

Lessmog | July 9, 2013

As I have said in an earlier post on this forum, I'm really not in the market for an S unless it comes with a bigger battery capacity OR there is a Supercharger along the route I must travel regularly (in Sweden). Both of these events today appear to lie in some distant future. This makes me a bit sad. But as a small-time investor I cheer at TSLA's development! It might help me pay for next-generation battery.

Kleist | July 9, 2013

Yes, 120-140 kWh would be perfect for me
Upgrade or new car depends how the new car looks at that time
The cells for the larger battery must be in full production in 3 years, w/o Gen3 cost targets can not be reached. I am sure some pre-production versions are already in road testing. How TM rolls out the new cells is unknown, my guess would be MX or high performance MS.

justineet | July 9, 2013's my understanding the main brain, the software, for the battery pack is designed to be within the pack itself. So a new will always come with the new software.

deezomaxima | July 9, 2013

I wonder if any other battery producers will jump in on this bandwagon.

Everything I've ever known about electric radio control cars will work in the Tesla design. You folks who own them will see batteries that will offer a lot more power and capacity to run longer ranges. These cars are not going to be limited in terms of electrical technology. It's just the tip of the iceberg.

I also think another electric motor should be added to supply more charging to the batteries. I used to run an electric motor off of my drive axle on my radio controlled to power lights (with a belt and pully). Electric motors can produce their own energy when spun up as well without any electrical power input. Cool stuff.

tobi_ger | July 9, 2013

I also think another electric motor should be added to supply more charging to the batteries.
How's that going to work? The engergy needs to come from somewhere.
What am I missing?

Brian H | July 9, 2013

Another id*** suggestion that confuses producing drag on the car for getting fee energy.

The GenIII is anticipated to have a 200 mile range. It is not a supercar upgrade to the MS. It is a mass-market lower priced car.

Kleist | July 9, 2013

Brian H - I get that... the $35k Gen3 will be equivalent in range to S60. Cost has to be half so for the battery it means half the number of cells. Let's say 3000 cells make 50 kWh battery then the individual cell has to be 17-18 Wh ( today's cell 11.3 Wh ).
Put 7500 new cells into a Model S and you get about 130 kWh - and there you have it. I was talking about a 120-140 kWh MS only.

Key point is in order to make the cost for a 200 miles Gen3 the battery chemistry has to improve by about 50%. And Elon has to have pre-production cells testing today or he will never make the 2016/17 target date.

Brian H | July 9, 2013

When "spun up" by what? That's the source of any energy they produce.

eddiemoy | July 9, 2013

kwh doesn't equal better performance, it just could mean more density in the batteries. what equals better performance would be increase in the number of batteries. i think if they come out with bigger battery it would be just change in the chemistry so may not see an increase in performance.

look at the 85kw batteries, only difference between standard and performance is the inverter.

i think the 60kw battery has less # of cells and like wise for the 40kw, that is why it is less power/performance.

elon mention this in an interview where they solved performance without going with supercapacitors.

July10Models | July 9, 2013

The infotainment display on the MS is fully integrated with the electronic mother board and accessories so that the whole unit may be upgraded.
Batteries do not store power, they store energy. It takes more energy to support higher power. The MS 60 can accelerate as fast as a P85 with the proper power electronics. It just would not have a usefully range. The current range of he S 85 will serve my needs well so I have no need to upgrade.

shop | July 9, 2013

No I wouldn't upgrade. No need.

cloroxbb | July 9, 2013


the more kwh in the battery, the more kwh you can send to the motor.

According to

"◾As energy storage capacity increases, so does the total power. This results in quicker acceleration"

justineet | July 9, 2013

@eddiemoy............more density = more battery power for same# of cells == More Mileage/Less Expensive Vehicle == also more performance with more current if preferred......

GettingOldFast | July 9, 2013

How long would it take to charge a 120kw battery on a standard nema14-50? Assume 400 mile range, 25 miles/ hour, you're looking at 16 hours of overnight charging. Most people aren't even home that long. And what would you do on a road trip if you pulled up to a SC with 250 miles remaining? Skip it, and risk arriving at the next SC needing 300 miles of charge, but finding no open bays for who knows how long?

Since most of us will stop at every SC anyways, and would rarely charge up fully at night (from anywhere near empty), I believe that we are pretty close to driving the future of EV battery capacity. If anything, I think advances will be made in the area of efficiency, where an 85kwh battery will get us 320-340 miles.

AmpedRealtor | July 9, 2013

Folks, keep in mind that Tesla has stated that Gen 3 will have approximately 200 mile range. If their next generation platform is expected to come in at 200 miles - presumably because that number puts it within reach of most superchargers - then I would not expect any development towards a 500 mile battery. Tesla also needs Gen 3 to be a profitable vehicle at reduced cost, and a big part of that equation is not only to reduce battery costs by the time we get to Gen 3, but also to put in a small battery to keep costs even lower.

I'm just trying to keep my expectations real and grounded. I think those expecting larger battery packs and longer range are not listening to what Tesla is saying.

justineet | July 9, 2013

@AmpedRealtor....perhaps u should listen more closely....Tesla main battery guy few weeks ago has said the technology for 400-500miles battery in his opinion is within reach soon.... assumption is people will fully charge a 400Kwh battery when doing long distance travels for the most part...and they will probably do it in multiple days of charging not in one night......

dglauz | July 9, 2013

Bigger battery = longer charging time. I probably would not do it. 10 hours at home to get full charge on s85 (from 5 mi RR) with 1 charger. I can already go round trip Sacramento - SF on a single charge...

AmpedRealtor | July 9, 2013

@ justineet,

You think there is going to be a larger battery pack because the technology is "within reach" according to "the main battery guy" at Tesla who prefers to go nameless much like the "insider sources" to the Weekly World News. And even if the technology is "within reach", that does not mean it is practical to implement or even something Tesla wants to do. If Tesla was planning on a longer range battery, why would they not be promoting this as they are promoting everything else? I mean, they have no problem pre-announcing battery swapping which is just vaporware until it's actually implemented, so if they had longer range batteries in the works I'm sure they would love to promote that or at least hint that Gen 3 will have longer range.

Tesla says Gen 3 will have a 200 mile range, and everything Tesla is doing is to get them to Gen 3. A 500 mile battery is not in the cards, I'm afraid, no matter how much you want that to be the case. Don't take the word of someone who knows someone whose 3rd cousin twice removed heard from a friend at the water cooler that "the main battery guy" at Tesla said that 500 mile batteries are "within reach".

Good lord! LOL

d_kaufman | July 9, 2013


You haven't been paying attention. Right after the battery swap event, Samosam reported on this forum what he had learned from a discussion with JB Straubel (Tesla CTO), and that is where the 4-500 mile quote came from.

He wasn't quoted as saying that Tesla planned to use it, but he was surely talking about their own research.

justineet | July 9, 2013

@AmpedRealtor.....if u open ur ears a little bit more and yap a little less maybe you would have known who said's not an "insider source" who said's well known who said's JB Straubel, Chief Technical Officer of Tesla.....I recommend you take a little more precaution when typing away while taking ur usual refreshment beverage. U seem to have a little difficulty handling ur beverage. Aside from that, as Kleist already said, it's IMPOSSIBLE to produce a Gen 3 model car for half the price of model S w/o developing a battery technology which has a range capacity of about 400miles for a simmilarily sized current model S pack. I believe that is apparent to most people. Perhaps not to u!

AmpedRealtor | July 9, 2013

@ d_kaufman, thanks for the background info. I'm just saying that I doubt very much such a battery is in the cards. People seem to be getting their hopes up, my point is to keep expectations realistic because then there is less room for disappointment.

mvannah | July 9, 2013


Musk himself is made the statement at the 4/27/13 battery announcement:
He was being coy because of the pending battery swap announcement. The ideal would be to keep your lower-energy battery for a long time and swap to a 170kWh battery when leaving town. Superchargers in the future would ramp up the power to accommodate the energy level of the battery pack. It would be awesome to have a 500 mile rated battery for road trips. There are a lot of places I like to drive that just don't have superchargers scheduled (i.e. Las Vegas to Reno, Yosemite, etc).

Kleist | July 9, 2013

@AmpedRealtor - I think there is a misunderstanding. The $35k Gen3 model will have 200 miles range. But for sure for more money there will Gen3 version with longer range... (like S60 = 208 EPA and S85= 265 EPA).

And for the S model there will be a "500 miles" battery in the not so distant future without any question.

As I pointed out earlier without an improved battery technology he can not make a 200 miles Gen3 for $35k. The S60 starts at $70k (w/o tax credit) and for Gen3 he has to cut cost in half - biggest piece is the battery. Cutting the battery cost in half means reducing the number of cells by about half... there is no other way in terms of cost.

Kleist | July 9, 2013

- 120 kWh charging at 10 kW = 12 hrs plus losses, so about 13-14 hrs. Most times you are not starting from zero and do not have to charge to full so it is still resonable with 14-50 outlet. HPWC would cut it half.
- the beauty of a larger battery is that you effectively increase the number of super chargers by (a) you could skip one and/or (b) charge time is shorter because you do not have charge to the slower full state.

Bubba2000 | July 9, 2013

By the time Tesla rolls out the 500 mile battery the Model S and even Model X will have a lot of upgraded tech and design. Improved interior, improved headroom. Safety features like park and proximity sensors, lane change assist, collision avoidance, smart cruise control. Electronics may be improved with better display, faster internet, including 4G (may have to pay!).

I am thinking of trading my 85P for the MX with AWD performance package but without the tires. It is more practical than the 85P. Not as sporty, but these things weight nearly 5,000 lbs loaded, so it does not matter. I keep my old Porsche (too old to sell) for that kind of fun... nothing beats the handing.

I would like to see the MS loose some weight using stronger but lighter alloys of Al and steel. Better handling and range too. Not just use brute force of more power in the batteries.

orthophonist | July 9, 2013

When you talk battery it's best to talk Panasonic. Read their stuff, check out their patent applications, see what rumors exist, see what they are reporting in the technical journals - then, and only then can one make a reasonable comment about what is to be. All else is impoverished speculation.

Kleist | July 9, 2013

"see what rumors exist" - isn't that the ultimate speculation ?

Not a good guideline... I stick with manufacturing principles.

deezomaxima | July 9, 2013

@Brian H,

As I described, it can't be spun up by the drive axle by belt drive. I've done it in a model car scenario and it will work in a full sized EV. I was able to run lights on my models without batteries because electric motors can produce their own power by spinning them. With everything the Tesla S is running off of the battery now, an extra smaller motor wouldn't cause enough drag to slow these cars down at all.

justineet | July 9, 2013

@AmpedRealtor....nobody is talking about hopes and dreams...we r talking about facts....which u seem to have issue with it for some weird unknown reason.........

thomas2V | July 9, 2013

Actually counting on it in 3 years ;)

Brian H | July 9, 2013

Nonsense. Kinetic energy (motion) has a source; exploiting it draws it down. No exceptions.

TM has a proprietary battery being made by Panasonic, not something they can talk about or sell elsewhere.

Don't count on lighter alloys to help the MS/X loose lose weight; aluminum is already so light there's not much loss to be had there. Brute force batteries are far more likely.

Cutting battery cost will come partly (mostly?) from improved chemistry. Elon has been a bit cagey on the point, because it's not nailed down (proven) yet.

justineet | July 9, 2013

For Gen3 cars Battery cost will significantly come down from battery chemistry advancement. The Lithium battery cost is already coming down by 7 to 8 percent yearly. The current battery in Model S is a 2011 battery technology. In 2015/16, which is 5-6 years in the future from current Model S battery technology, the cost of the battery will be 50-60% lower compounded. Another significant saving will come from the lighter weight of Gen3 model which is expected to be about 20% lighter than Model S. That means Gen3 car can achieve the same range as Model S from a smaller pack other words a Gen3 would achieve the 200 mile range of Model S60 with 40-50KWh pack instead of 60KWh pack.

olanmills | July 9, 2013

I wouldn't upgrade in 5-6 years because I'm assuming that would be an expensive upgrade, and so far, for my lifestyle, unnecessary.

justineet | July 9, 2013

In another words future significant reduction of battery cost is a "proven" deal....

Kleist | July 9, 2013

Brian - sure it is not proven, it is in testing. He must have something in hand and he is definetly not waiting for some magical stuff coming out of some labs... otherwise no Gen3 in 2016/17. I am doing product development and production ramp up for 25 years... putting things into customer hands takes always a big leap of faith and it is only proven if it actually works in the hands of customers.
Cutting cost in manufacturing is only through reducing components... example in your electronic circuit you replace 5 $1 ICs with one higher integrated $2 IC. Besides saving $3 in IC cost you cut the assembly cost by a factor of five. You need the advancement in technology to replace the 5 ICs with one IC, but only the number of components and reduced assembly os what cuts the cost.
I bought Tesla stock once I heard Elon's Oxford talk a long time ago because it showed me he really understands the recipe ( many executives don't ) to make manufacturing a gold mine... also look at the battery system assembly thread on TMC there you can see exactly this recipe executed.

mikefa | July 9, 2013

Tesla would rather sell you a brand new car instead of just a brand new battery to extend the life of an old car!... it is a guarantee pricing will reflect it will be more feasible to buy a new car than just a new battery.

Brian H | July 10, 2013

Yes, and he also uses the guideline that 10x the volume cuts unit costs by 2x. So if 200,000 MS could have been made and sold out of the gate, it could have been half the current price!

sgarapat | July 10, 2013

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deezomaxima | July 10, 2013

Brian, you don't know what you're talking about. I've proven it works. Just because you disagree doesn't mean it doesn't work. Maybe YOU should research before making your claims. What in the hell do you think a Generator is? It takes mechanical power to make electrical power.

Read before you say someone is making idiot claims. I went to school for Electromechanical Engineering a degree. DOH!

jamestily | July 10, 2013

IMO. The first improvement will be greater density per cell, which is already being worked on by Panasonic. This would allow greater range with virtually the same number of cells and the same battery pack construction. This would most likely not cost any more to produce than today's pack, maybe not a huge improvement, but still every bit helps.

jamestily | July 10, 2013

Oh, and to answer the post question, I would seriously consider paying for a battery upgrade in the near future, if the cost compared favorably to the amount of increase gained.

cybrown | July 10, 2013

@deezo, but where is the mechanical power coming from in the first place? Electrical power. It sounds like you are going from electrical -> mechanical -> electrical. That's what regenerative braking does, but only because the only other choice is electrical -> mechanical -> heat. Adding a generator whose sole purpose is to convert mechanical energy back to electrical doesn't make sense. In your RC vehicles, why did you use a second motor, instead of just pulling power directly from the batteries? I have no doubt that it worked, but it is less efficient than pulling electrical power from the batteries directly.