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200 mile General Motors EV

200 mile General Motors EV

There are rumblings about a new EV from GM having a battery only range of 200 miles, to be released in 2016. It would include a gas generator, but would be able to go 200 miles on the battery and cost $30K. This sounds a little far fetched to me considering that the Leaf and the i3 are around 75 miles range and cost a lot more.

Ocean Railroader | July 20, 2014

In Who Killed the Electric Car GM had plans of adding nickle batteries to the EV-1 to give it a 130 mile range. They had also talked at the time of adding lithium to the 2003 versions to replace the bulky lead acid batteries that gave it a 70 mile range.

A regular lead acid battery weights 65 pounds a Lithium battery with the same amount of power will only weigh 16 pounds. Also a lithium battery needs only 45% of the space that a lead acid needs.

If GM would have popped out the lead acid batteries in the EV-1 with lithium they would have had a 200 mile range car back then. But instead they scrapped the EV-1 and didn't build anything else.

I think it's not a case if it's possible. I think GM didn't really care for the last few years. The only reason why they care is due to Tesla existing.

Iowa92x | July 20, 2014

Latest article I read was GM was betting on a new battery chemistry that would offer 200 mile range by 2018. That new chemistry fell through, so they are even farther behind Tesla now. Best guess is 175 mile pack by 2020, GM getting SPANKED.

Al1 | July 20, 2014

I'll believe when I see it. I remember how Volt was over hyped and pretty much anything that GM does. They can't produce an ICE car without massive recalls any more.

Ocean Railroader | July 20, 2014

What to me helped kill the Volt was that it was a few thousands over priced and that was soon used angst it.

bigd | July 20, 2014

apsley "It would include a gas generator," Is that a option or built in??

Timo | July 20, 2014

Since you made same error twice (same error in different topic):

angst = "a feeling of deep anxiety or dread, typically an unfocused one about the human condition or the state of the world in general."

against is the word you are looking for.

bigd | July 20, 2014

Timo I have "angst" now wondering if you or Brian will notice I used a option when I should have used an option LOL

Realo.de | July 21, 2014

hybrid vs range extender

maybe not quite in the focus of this topic: there are a lot of "hybrid cars" (electric+gas gears), electric+gas-generator (Opel Ampera) and "full electric" (Tesla the only one to my knowledge (except some very small city cars). Hybrids as well as generators usually have a very small "electric" range.

Range has always been a concern in these forums. So I have the following questions: what about a Tesla with a "(natural?) gas spare can".

We are currently discussing a 40kWh G3. What about a 30kWh battery with a generator for on-board recharching? This solution would be lighter than the 40kWh, would still have 300miles "electric range" and an additional 100km with generator.

The main/principle difference to hybrid approaches would be the fact that this is still a "rather full-electric" vehicle. The electric range still is twice as much as today's generator solution in electric mode based on a battery with twice the capacity. the "spare can" is just a spare can but would extend the range from 300km to 400km. This could solve the "range problem" that has been discussed several times.

Näky | July 21, 2014

GTF wrote:
"Range has always been a concern in these forums."

No, not really after arrival of MS and real world experiences using it (from what I have read). For some posters its the unsolvable issue, but those are limited in numbers.

And no, pure BEV is way to go for Tesla.

Timo | July 21, 2014

@bigd, I usually don't correct peoples grammar error (I do those enough myself), but when someone does same error multiple times it is indication that it isn't just typo or speed writing. In that case correction is in order, the person making the mistake learns the correct word.
-----
Model S is not for everyone. Model 3 also is not for everyone. There isn't a car in the world that is for everyone. If range is an issue to you and you can't tolerate SC charging times, don't buy Tesla. It's that simple. Majority of people don't see the problem with the range or with charging times, so it really is no issue.

Tesla will never do hybrid. Tesla cars are and will be no-compromise BEV:s (at least until there is better alternative to batteries which you can charge at home).

Tiebreaker | July 21, 2014

@Timo +++1

DTsea | July 21, 2014

Gtf.... no. Just supercharge.

carlgo | July 21, 2014

Range and charging issues are not the predominate concern on this forum, me being one of the exceptions, but in the general populace there is that angst. If you come upon articles and replies and what not about electrical driving, it is ALL about range anxiety and charging issues.

Supercharger speed is not really the biggest concern. Not really fast enough, but also not intolerable speed-wise. It is the reliance on trickle chargers at destinations and along non-supported routes that scare people. Being tethered up for hours and hours...not tolerable to most people and really only suitable at hotels, etc where people are spending the night.

Again, the real enthusiasts are ok with this and Tesla can sell as man cars as the can make anyway. It is the future of mass adoption and affordable and convenient electrical driving that real is the important issue and it would be good to know the plan to support that.

bigd | July 21, 2014

Carlgo "Being tethered up for hours and hours...not tolerable to most people and really only suitable at hotels" So you are saying it is suitable to be tethered at a hotel for hours??

Anemometer | July 21, 2014

bigd: "Being tethered up for hours and hours...not tolerable to most people and really only suitable at hotels" So you are saying it is suitable to be tethered at a hotel for hours??

Yep, what else are you gonna do with your car whilst you sleep? Do you want it to wander around alone looking for a mate? A few places I've stayed at near motorways recently have EV charging points. Checked them out - some are free, some you pay if not a guest at the hotel (which seems fair enough).

Or are you referring to my kinky bondage sessions with ladies of ill repute? I know not everyone approves, but I do close the curtains.

bigd | July 21, 2014

"but I do close the curtains." You sir, are going above and beyond the call of duty.

americazsads | July 21, 2014

Supercharger speed is not really the biggest concern. Not really fast enough, but also not intolerable speed-wise. It is the reliance on trickle chargers at destinations and along non-supported routes that scare people.

cantcurecancer | July 21, 2014

Don't count GM out just yet. Sure their leadership are morons, they've made poor decisions for the past 30 years, and the bureaucracy and corporate culture needs work. But they have the talent and the capital to produce a mean EV. They aren't exactly unfamiliar with all-electric powertrains...they just need a kick in their ass to go all 18650.

Brian H | July 22, 2014

bigd;
Timo and I opted not to exercise the option to hammer you as you deserved, in order to maximize your angst. It's cruel and devious, we are.

Haeze | July 22, 2014

Why offer any fuel-based range extender ? If that fuel is worth using, why not just power the car from it, and forgo the huge battery ?

The cost to research, and manufacture of those sort of range extending features is better spent simply making better batteries, that can take a quicker charge.

Red Sage ca us | July 22, 2014

Haeze: Great point. I'm sure that is the ultimate goal of those pushing for aluminum based 'range extenders' today. They want it to be the primary source of power in the future.

johncrab | July 23, 2014

GM is of the mind-set of "We build things that burn oil". They can't get away from it. They ale build truly horrible cars by design. Building a high quality EV requires a different way of thinking and not the "what we can get away with" which has driven the company since the 50's.

GM invented "Value Engineering". It's a concept where the designers design a car and then "Value Engineering" strips out every possible penny of cost. They put in cheap door locks, cheap ignition switches (ahem), replace metal with plastic, replace 10 gauge wire with 18 gauge. That's why turning on the radio will cause the headlights to dim. In the 70's and 80's it was common for cars coming off the assembly line to have to be pushed off because they would not start.

That's the mentality of GM. It's about wrapping bad cars in the flag and calling customers "un-American" if they want something better. There is a no way that a company that thinks this way can build anything in the EV range which will be any good. The Volt is a disaster of a car, so they put it in a Cadillac skin and doubled the price. I hear they have sold tens of these. They know their customers will buy a gimmick rather than a good car.

Look at this forum. With all of the Model S cars sold, there are a few vocal complaints here and there but look at a Volt forum. There are pages of line items with pages under each of those. GM is dedicated to building crap which their market will accept and keep going back. They have no incentive to build a good car.

Tiebreaker | July 23, 2014

Have you noticed?

Range and charging are of concern to NON-owners.

Range and charging are of NON-concern for owners.

Grinnin'.VA | July 23, 2014

@Tiebreaker | JULY 23, 2014:

"Have you noticed?"

"Range and charging are of concern to NON-owners."

I beg to differ. I am quite concerned about both range and charging. To me, these aren't optional for a car I expect to rely on as my primary car.

It's technically true that I don't yet own an MS: I'm merely in the production queue.

I do own a modest amount of TSLA stock. If I were wealthy, I'd own more.

Ron :)

P.S. Sweeping generalizations are almost always at least partially false.

Red Sage ca us | July 23, 2014

SamO | July 23, 2014

+100 Tiebreaker!!!!

Great insight.

@Grinnin'

You can complain as soon as you get the car! ;-)

bigd | July 23, 2014

UncleSamO "You can complain as soon as you get the car!"
complaining--express dissatisfaction or annoyance about a state of affairs or an event.

Grinnin'"I am quite concerned about both range and charging."
concerned--worried, troubled, or anxious.

UncleSamO makes a living out of ignorance

Grinnin'.VA | July 25, 2014

@bigd | JULY 23, 2014:

Grinnin'"I am quite concerned about both range and charging."
concerned--worried, troubled, or anxious.

As I drive my Prius, I never need to plan ahead for more than the next 50-100 miles. I can safely assume that when my gas gauge gets down to two squares (about 1/5 of a tank), I'll just stop at the next convenient place to buy more gas.

With my MS such planning-free behavior is risky. When I plan my trip, I need to plan where I recharge. Since some of my recharging may be off the SC grid, my planning needs to include considering where I stay overnight. It appears to me that I'll rarely find trickle chargers, except those at or very near hotels, that meet my needs on multi-day road trips.

Considerations of range, charging availability and charging time complicate my overall trip planning. Others on this forum have reported that they have experienced unexpected delays with charging while on road trips. So I presume that it would be prudent for me to plan my road trips a bit more carefully than for road trips driving ICE cars.

What puzzles me is that I suspect that you already knew all of that. And yet you seem to be trying to intimidate me to prevent me from expressing my thoughts about these things on this forum. My question is: Why?

Ron :)

Dramsey | July 25, 2014

@johncrab: They ale build truly horrible cars by design.

No, they don't. Some of their current lineup, such as the new Corvette and Cadillac CTS, are brilliant cars that have won universal acclaim.

The Volt is a disaster of a car...

I suppose it depends on your definition of "disaster". Is "the Volt is outselling the Model S so far in 2014" a "disaster"? Because it is.

It's about wrapping bad cars in the flag and calling customers "un-American" if they want something better.

Can you provide any citation where anyone with GM has ever suggested that buying a foreign car is "un-American"?

They have no incentive to build a good car.

Sure they do: the dozens of other car companies people can buy from if they don't like GM offerings.

I don't own any GM cars and don't particularly think they need defending, but some of this over-the-top slavering hatred perplexes me. Did you have a GM lemon at some point or something?

holidayday | July 25, 2014

" it would be prudent for me to plan my road trips a bit more carefully than for road trips driving ICE cars"

It'll be like that for probably 5-10 more years.

I used to plan my ICE trips carefully (since I was usually going 1000-2500 miles); making sure there were timed/spaced gas stations, food, or rest areas ahead. If I wasn't sure about the space between two large cities, I'd gas in/near the large city.

Experience has shown that I didn't need to be so careful, since most of those little towns in between would have truck stops or gas stations.

With technology helping so much nowadays, it's easier to plan those road-trips. But until SuperChargers or Battery-swaps become much more common, more careful planning is still required.

Dramsey | July 25, 2014

Psst...the Volt outsold the Model S in 2013, too. Disaster!

SamO | July 25, 2014

Maybe the Sonic EV with 200 mile range is the possible outcome:

http://cleantechnica.com/2014/07/25/lg-chem-developing-200-mile-battery-...

bigd | July 25, 2014

@Grinnin "And yet you seem to be trying to intimidate me to prevent me from expressing my thoughts about these things on this forum. My question is: Why?" Actually, if you read what I said, I think you have legitimate concerns. You have every right to voice concerns, I do it in hopes that someone on here would alleviate my concerns. UncleSamO changed the word you used (concern) to his word (complaining). However, this childish behavior does nothing to help you with your concerns or further the cause of EV. I was simply pointing out by changing the word, it has a completely different meaning, thus, I put the definition of the 2 words on here.

Now read what I said again, does it clear it up? If not, understand in no way was I attempting to discourage you from voicing concerns. A lot of us have similar concerns on here (not complaints)

UncleSamO "You can complain as soon as you get the car!"
complaining--express dissatisfaction or annoyance about a state of affairs or an event.

Grinnin'"I am quite concerned about both range and charging."
concerned--worried, troubled, or anxious.

Nanana26 | July 25, 2014

"the i3 are around 75 miles range"

the BMW i3 range of the gas version is officially 300km or 186 miles

so a 200 mile range car is completely possible

the reason those hybrids can do so many miles is because of regenerative braking

the new porsche 918 is a hybrid that never needs to be charged unless it's battery depleted for some reason, the regenrative breaking keeps the battery at full power non-stop

Red Sage ca us | July 25, 2014

bigd: Yeah, that's what I thought you meant. ;-)

Chevrolet Sonic EV: It's a nice move. I'm happy to see that General Motors might be considering this seriously. But I'd prefer they made a nice, neat, fully-electric two-seater with that range and called it the Chevette.

Grinnin'.VA | July 25, 2014

@Strawberrylove | JULY 25, 2014:

"the new porsche 918 is a hybrid that never needs to be charged unless it's battery depleted for some reason, the regenrative breaking keeps the battery at full power non-stop"

Regenerative braking isn't without loss of energy. All hybrids run on gas/diesel or some other fossil fuel. If filling up the fuel tank isn't counted, my Prius always recharges its battery in normal operation.

Are you telling us that the Porsche 918 is a perpetual motion machine?

Ron :)

Dramsey | July 25, 2014

I have sat in (although not driven) Chevrolet Spark. It is a very tiny car, not exactly reeking of the level of precision and luxury we expect in our Teslas.

I would also imagine it's much easier to make a very small car go 200 miles on a charge than it is a much larger car.

All that said, kudos to them if they can pull it off.

Red Sage ca us | July 25, 2014

I don't run General Motors. But if I did... THIS is what my fully electric vehicles would look like:

bigd | July 25, 2014

Sage, I am not a GM fan but id seriously consider that as an EV :-)

Nanana26 | July 26, 2014

"Are you telling us that the Porsche 918 is a perpetual motion machine?"

the 918 is a very powerful hybrid, and becase of it's massive amount of regenerative breaking, it allos the elec tric motor to never be charged

the 918 has a massive V8, and it dumps all that power back into the electric motor, not just with regenrative breaking, it does it in multiple ways, too complex for me to wrap my head around

the 918 is a very green car, it has excellent MPG, even though it has a massive gas engine

my point is that that small gas engine in that GM, is probably being leverage to increase the MPG through regenerative breaking, no car is as effective as the 918 at doing it, but that would explain why it get 200 miles, that leverage from the gas engine is included

Nanana26 | July 26, 2014

Think of it this way.

the regular BMW i3 = 90 miles actual range

the BMW i3 REX = 250 miles

that is 160 miles more....but if you look at the gas engine that is in the BMW i3 REX...it is a tiny gas engine similar in size of a 600 CC motorbike...it doesn't make any sense

until you add in the regenerative breaking, a gas engine in a hybrid allows you to leverage the energy density of gasoline

and I have seen car makers of hybrids add that mileage to their electric engine specs, and in a way it's fair, all they're doing is adding in leverage from their gas engine

Brian H | July 26, 2014

Sl;
\;p
There is no such thing as generating electricity in an ICE or hybrid without burning gas. Neither regen nor other complex circuitry is capable of ex nihilo energy creation.

Nanana26 | July 26, 2014

"There is no such thing as generating electricity in an ICE or hybrid without burning gas. Neither regen nor other complex circuitry is capable of ex nihilo energy creation."

of course not, it's done burning gas, don't think anyone was arguing electricity came from thin air

but what a hybrid can do is generate electricity from the gas engine, that's why you see that BMW i3 jump from 90 miles to 250 miles by only adding a tiny gas engine, you can leverage your gas engine and recharge your battery through the gas engine

SamO | July 26, 2014

@strawberrylove,

BMW i3 REX does not have a 250 mile range.

Given the car’s Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) range rating of 72 miles in electric mode, we’d expect the range extender to fire up after around 68 miles of zero-emissions driving. Once in range extender mode, however, the 1.9-gallon fuel tank (the filler for which is opposite the car’s plug socket) provides enough energy for a further 78 miles of driving, during which time you’ll be emitting 40 grams of carbon dioxide per mile and averaging 39 miles-per-gallon, rather than none at all.

68 + 78 = 146 miles

http://ecomento.com/review/bmw-i3-range-extender-first-drive-in-the-elec...

Red Sage ca us | July 26, 2014

SamO: Thanks! I've really been rather peeved by the people who keep claiming ridiculous range for the BMW i3, but I've been too lazy to look up the proof that they were wrong. ;-)

Nanana26 | July 26, 2014

you're linking to a site with guesses, the official response from BMW is that the i3 adds 160 miles, on top of the 90 range that makes 250 range like the article and BMW say

http://insideevs.com/bmw-details-range-extender-on-upcoming-i3-up-to-160...

the reality is always a bit less

what you can't do is what some sites do and look at the EV range and gasoline range seperately, when the EV power ends, the gas engine recharges the EV engine

Nanana26 | July 26, 2014

"claiming ridiculous range for the BMW i3"

200 miles for a hybrid isn't at all ridiculous, it's actually completely normal

SamO | July 26, 2014

EV range 72 miles

REX range 78 miles

Total 150 miles, which is visible to the left of the car's rear bumper.

This is the EPA rating that gave MS85 a 265 mile range (88% of 300 miles)

I'm willing to acknowledge an "ideal" range of the REX at 170 miles.

It is what it is.

I think the range for the i3 with or without REX is excellent for at least 80% of the drivers in the world. Many drivers/carbuyers believe they are in the 1% of users in taking long distance trips.

SamO | July 26, 2014

I realized that the link you provided was 2 years old.

So BMW had to halve what they promised.

Oops.

Tiebreaker | July 26, 2014

@Grinnin' Ron... LOL!

You are "technically" not an owner, but my statement is a sweeping generalization?

I think all the concerns about range disappear once the owner gains experience first-hand.

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